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Honda Stream 2007 X-1.8L versus Toyota Wish X-1.8L (by mt88)

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mt88
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Post by mt88 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:04 pm

Bros,

OT a bit, on a lighter note.

Have you ever heard a saying that Adult is actually a grown-up kiddo with more expensive toys? :lol: :lol:

Looks how's the kiddo behave when you take the toys from him/her :lol: Looks how much excuse he/she has to defend him/herself. Often you tell him what his or her mistake but he or she will take the other subject as an excuse. :lol:

I often find it quite true. Not all the time lah, ok.. :wink: :lol:

I hope no one is taken offence again, as this is just a casual remark with no ill intention.

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Post by mt88 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:24 pm

It still confused me that some people here "Must" claim as if "most Toyota Wish users" get 14km/l :rolleyes: :wall: . Toyota factory claim is only 14.4km/l. It is no secret that most users wont be able to get what claimed by factory. There bound to be some who can get close, or sometimes surpass it, however it wont be many.

The so called claimed (in previous page of this thread page 4) doesn't tally with what other Wish users said in their very own - Wish forum. One even complained that he/she get (and most users) around 9-10+ km/l only, and get around 500km per 60Ltank even on highway mostly. The thread is at
http://www.twcsg.org/viewtopic.php?t=92 ... 684ed9dfa4

According to the poster there by Trojanwish (Wish owner) I quoted: "After advise by so many bros here i am still getting abt 9+ to 10+ per litre no matter how hard i try. Should i bang table at the PI to change my ECU or whatever etc or anyone can recommend a good workshop to diagnose ?
Getting very pissed off wif my ride liao cause i drive alot. Seeking legal against PI helps ? My car all stock except 16" rims and OWS air filter with iridium plugs. Mileage abt 17000. Anyone can advise
?"

A reply by Blacklabel a Toyota Wish owner: "Bro, relax. Many are also getting about 9-10km/L, it's very common among the owners here."" and so on..

When I read through, I get the impression that only few members so called FC Kings there get 13+km/l. Well that is not to far from the SSOG pooling. In fact most SSOG member get even better return on average of 10-11km/l (compare to 9-10 on Wish?)

So I really dont know why some people here :boohoo: wants to make a big hu-ha here when the reality that new Stream with newer technology consume slightly less fuel than the current Wish. What is his/her hidden agenda?

I personally think that the FC for either Stream or Wish wont be much diff, depending on the route. One thing for sure, when crusising light at Highway a 5AT Stream will consume less fuel as I said in page 4.

I will probably post how 10-15 factory claim method later, as I understand that so many people keep asking about FC. As a basic guideline to most users, one needs to give a discount about 30-40% from 10-15 factory claim. This is because the 10-15 jpn test is done at low speed max 40kh at city driving and max 70km for highway driving. Who do that in daily driving? At such one would probably hog the road. I hope Honda member be mindful not to hog the road ;)

I am also curious what is the hidden agenda to pick up some of my words, twisting it and making me looks like I discredit many?

I have no hidden agenda by writing this comparison as I dont get any benefit if either car sells. I write it to give more reading material (education) to people and for fun. Is this now wrong to write such review so people can get more info and making an informed decision?

I was once (out of the blue) approached by a SE thanking me for the review. He said he used many of article here as his selling point. I said to him, he is free to use it as this is a free net and infact I think he deserve to get customers when he bothers to do some research for his customers. I think "maybe" some L think that I am their competitor, so trying to sabo me :lol: . Well all of you who think I am selling cars, can sleep well, cos I never sell cars for a living and not related in anyway to such :lol:

I hope this help to clear some air here.. :sigh:

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Post by mt88 » Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:50 pm

ventus wrote:Wish (More quiet (DOHC VVTI engine)and more fuel economical - Most wish owners can easily achieve 12-14km/l or 600-800km/full tank with 10-15l of reserve) / Stream (good pick-up but engine a bit noisy at the same rev as wish (SOHC iVtec) and FC so far never heard of any stream that can beat the WISH fc
Bro, please be more considerate and accurate when you are stating some issue cos it may mislead people to believe that it is true whereas it is turn out to be false.

I did some reading at Wish forum and shock to find that you actually did complain about your Wish FC.

Here is what a nick name Ventus said in http://www.twcsg.org/viewtopic.php?t=90 ... c&start=30

I quoted:

ventus
TWC Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 125
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:49 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ManualOnly wrote:
...so is that reason why u sold your Wish for a 2.4 Ody? (besides the taxi-factor?)
ventus wrote:
IMHO, FC is not that impt....just enjoy the car.
--------------
Yup coz I use to care so much abt FC. In the end, buy this gadget lah that gadget lah but still no improvement. Should hv just used that amt of money to buy petrol.
I use to drive a Matrix (Manual) (FC 9-10km/l) and my wish has given me my worst fc ever coz of city driving (FC 10-11km/l) as I live in Yishun and work in yishun as well.
and so on..


If that the case, the wish owner FC are not better off than Stream as many SSOG member also get about that.

Why bother? Well it creates some credibilty/realibity issue here lar.. :wink: Anyway I hope this is a good lesson and an eye opener for everyone

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Post by mt88 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:08 pm

Japanese 1.8L Stream user review on FC http://www.honda.co.jp/usersvoice/strea ... index.html

Basically he says his average fc is about 11-12km/l and at certain condition can hit 16.8km/l

A video of Stream 0-100 in 10 sec? Possibly modded?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8E24EnW ... re=related

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Post by wishfever » Wed May 07, 2008 2:05 pm

mt88 wrote:Japanese 1.8L Stream user review on FC http://www.honda.co.jp/usersvoice/strea ... index.html

Basically he says his average fc is about 11-12km/l and at certain condition can hit 16.8km/l

A video of Stream 0-100 in 10 sec? Possibly modded?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8E24EnW ... re=related
bro, am driving Wish for almost 2 yrs +. FC is all up to individuals' driving pattern, mods, routes. Not really just the rides. Hopes that helps. :)
The truth is still out there
ImageImage

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Post by mt88 » Wed May 07, 2008 2:13 pm

wishfever wrote: FC is all up to individuals' driving pattern, mods, routes.
That is well understood ;)

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Post by mt88 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:27 pm

Time for update.

A Toyota Wish user achieve good FC with approx 800km per tank as reported at MCF
Courtesy of Novoel (member of twc club).
Image


So does for Honda Stream users
Image Image
Image Image[/reply]

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Post by ManualOnly » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:56 pm

mt88 wrote:Image Image
Image Image[/reply]
I am surprised even till later 2008, there is still comparison going on between the Stream with that half-decade old out-going Granny of all minivan. :lol:

Given the advanced 5AT and Atkinson-based R18 engine, RN6 should in theory gives better FC vs its much older Toyota rival.

Perhaps it is time to give G1 Wish a well-deserved retirement soon.
That was what I thought before BM decides otherwise in July!

Anyway, I notice all those pic are from Japanese owner shared in Honda site http://www.honda.co.jp/usersvoice/stream/. *Note the external temp reading.

Curious if there is similar mileage experienced under local (tropical) environment. :?:

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Post by mt88 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:25 pm

ManualOnly wrote: Given the advanced 5AT and Atkinson-based R18 engine, RN6 should in theory gives better FC vs its much older Toyota rival.
Perhaps it is time to give G1 Wish a well-deserved retirement soon.
That was what I thought before BM decides otherwise in July!
Ah... welcome back Man. It is not in theory but actually test also already better, just marginal :D

I agree that the current Wish is getting old and tired. It badly needs an update. Would be quite interesting to see a big improvement at 2ZR-FE which similary reducing a pumping loss seen in R18 engine.

Do you have new Wish pic?

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Post by ManualOnly » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:31 pm

mt88 wrote:
ManualOnly wrote: It is not in theory but actually test also already better, just marginal :D

I agree that the current Wish is getting old and tired. It badly needs an update. Would be quite interesting to see a big improvement at 2ZR-FE which similary reducing a pumping loss seen in R18 engine.

Do you have new Wish pic?
Well, that is not what I gathered from SSOG folks who drove Wish previously. Some of them reported higher consumption when covering similar daily routes. You might try query them on the details.

Don't get me wrong, Honda makes good, no, GREAT engine and innovative automobiles.

Problem is if your feedback shows RN6's real-world FC is only *marginally* better than a 4AT Wish powered by a 1999-designed 1ZZ-FE, then that will be an anti-climax considering the technical advances made in R18.

As for the expected new Wish, I prefer to keep an open view since no-one outside Toyota has seen one yet, nor any confirmation on the power plant.

For the dual vvti 2ZZ-FE, specs is availabe o n the internet.
Try this http://toyota.jp/allion/dynamism/engin/index.html
I let readers make their own judgement.

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Post by mt88 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:18 pm

ManualOnly wrote: Well, that is not what I gathered from SSOG folks who drove Wish previously. Some of them reported higher consumption when covering similar daily routes. You might try query them on the details.
Wasn’t that already discussed at page 4? I don’t wish to go back there :)

I have no doubt different users/skills come up with diff results. Diff sampling size yield diff result. As I read various user feedbacks from both camps at jpn forums recently, the conclusion is pretty much the same: Neither can be established as a clear winner, neck to neck.
Problem is if your feedback shows RN6's real-world FC is only *marginally* better than a 4AT Wish powered by a 1999-designed 1ZZ-FE, then that will be an anti-climax considering the technical advances made in R18.
Can you help to find in my review when I said R18 has made a leap and bound technical advancement?

The diff is indeed marginal and in my personal opinion hardly worth climaxing. I remember saying that it is a tough choice between the two.

Perhaps you have mistaken idea from this line: “Honda's new 2nd generation Honda Stream delivers a great package of power, fuel economy and utility. It's 1.8l R18A i-VTEC engine features a unique 'economy' mode for highway cruising.â€

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Post by ManualOnly » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:04 pm

mt88 wrote:Wasn’t that already discussed at page 4? I don’t wish to go back there :)
Bro, that one was done based on polling almost a year ago. In fact, one year on, there are more reports.
Like I've said b 4, do go verify with those SSOG folks again. No idea? Here's some. Details in the links and owerns themselves :

Owner-A
http://www.sgstream.org/forum/new-2006- ... #post97057

Owner-B
http://www.sgstream.org/forum/new-2006- ... #post97089

Can you help to find in my review when I said R18 has made a leap and bound technical advancement?
Sorry I didn't make myself clear, but since when did I mentioned about your "review" in my last post? :wink:

A quick check with the chart shows that 1ZZ-FE engine starts to loose its oomph from around 4000+ rpm while the R18A on new Stream manages to prolong the decline of torque slightly[/color]
The word is “slightlyâ€

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Post by mt88 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:22 am

Lol sorry if that wasnt clear enough. I was talking about marginal diff :wink:

I saw two exwish owner complain but also other Stream user questioning the oddity. And the fc pool is actually quite consitent with Jpn user pool. It is in the same range for both there.

System fault? While not all Joes may not able to take advantage but they can also learn to turn the "advancement" into their advantage. So it is not a bad thing too :wink:

This is an example of good Stream fc study chart, courtesy of from RaSZer from ssog http://www.sgstream.org/forum/general-q ... c-rsz.html

Image

Image
Last edited by mt88 on Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mt88 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:32 pm

ManualOnly wrote: Bro, that is the issue with the system, not driver.
Not entirely. Perhaps the explanation is like X-chart between result and advancement.
When the skill is better, the advancement brings better result than less advancement.
When the skill is not so good, the advancement may not bring much result or may work against.
Somewhere in the middle is where the point is met, hence the various results.

Diff car gives diff benefit. When the driver get better skill then he needs better advancement because less advancement may become counter productive.

That brings to Scenario 3, where similarly situation in scenario 2 but this time is driven by better eco skill. Instead of more aggressive acceleration is replaced by a very mild steady one followed by a very mild release of accelerator just in time not to drop speed. This action will be capture by the sensitive dbw and stipulate its ecu to maintain into eco cam as long as possible. In this scenario the R18 will perform better fc hence the fantastic result by some of the user as posted few thread above. It is also possible to replicate this in the Singapore (to certain extend) as we are blessed with relatively well controlled traffic.

I quoted from Mamboman from ssog: "My best has been around 14.5km/l in Singapore, 19km/l in Malaysia. However, average for past 10k is about 12.5km/l (on dashboard). Real calculations based on petrol pumped and distance travelled is around 11.6km/l. Am very light footed, about 50% urban"

Please not that R18 torque is far from shabby. Chart and actual experience shows it has more than enough for a decent driving just like 1ZZ

R18 dbw setting is rather sensitive. I guess is to ensure better respond. There is a gadgets to train users on eco driving habit (piggy back to ecu like pivot). Skills can be taught and everybody can learn, right?

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Post by mt88 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:44 pm

New 2009/2010 Toyota Wish to head on with Stream. Picture seems to be taken from jdm catalog

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