Honda Stream 2007 X-1.8L versus Toyota Wish X-1.8L (by mt88)

ManualOnly · Post by **ManualOnly** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:07 pm

Wish doesnt come with ECO low load indicator, (a change has been added)
Both cars have average km/l but not with an on-the-fly-fc bar (employ in hybrid) or Ody or Elysion. But Stream get extra ECO low load indicator

Correction:
Wish comes with "On-the-fly" (aka Real-time) FC reading plus Avg kph.
BTW, what does ECO do? Turns green when at best FC and lowest emission state or when ECO button is selected ?

Dont take the conclusion so seriously, it meant to be a joke. Notice the last sentence?

Agreed bro, that is why I am here to help correct some not-so-serious errors in the review.

Actually the dif on better headroom is very marginal. Second row pax on either cars wont have any diff going in and out as mentioned in the article. The third row is tricky.

Actually, my concern is your contradictory statements in the 1st and 2nd postings about the significance of the height clearance, not about the 3rd row entry issue. However, having say that, I agree 3rd row needs some acrobatic stunt by the pax. The sliding door is a better answer as in minivans like Mazda5 or Toyota Isis.

Notice the slanting foot room angle on Wish is not mentioned in official graph (not consistence) and actual height is also not as good as what people think, see the extra lines on my graph carefully The dummy on Wish is a child size dummy for third row while Stream use adult size.

Here is the enlarged version of the same pax seating schemetic.
How you come to arrive that Wish's schematic on the 3rd pax is of child-size is beyond me.

Better engine for Wish? 2ZR-FE Not yet for this current model. Maybe for all new Wish replacement? I already mentioned it in the history of wish url provided on the first few paragraph. http://motoring.asia1.com.sg/cgi-bin/mo ... 6;t=000373
However Toyota in its official report saying that all 1zzfe engine will be replaced by 2010.

Bro, better re-check your source again:
2010 is the dateline set by Toyota to revamp its entire engine design from concept to production, NOT a production dateline of 2ZR-FE.

In fact, the 2ZR-FE is already in-production now with at least 3 models (Corolla series) using this new dual-VVti power plant ever since its was officially announced this year 13 Jun.
Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/0613.html

The 2ZR-FE is a product of Toyota's on-going evolution of the engine design which is to meet more demanding emssion standard by 2010.
The current 1ZZ-FE has already being phase out when the factory retooling completes. My predicition is there are still inventories of 1ZZ-FE to meet Wish/Isis and other current models demand in the next 48 months before the next generation cycle begin. How time flies, Wish is already coming to 4 yrs old liao!

To get an idea what Toyota is doing for the next 4 yrs (until 2010), they just opened the 1st hybrid production in NA, outside Japan and PRC (1st non-JDM plant) this Oct.
Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/1013.html

In fact, you will see more of such new engines when BM brings in the latest low-emssion hybrid V6 engine from Lexus GS/LS by end of this year. So my bet is Wish G2 might also comes with hybrid powerplant variant.

joyfulcity · Post by **joyfulcity** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:43 am

ManualOnly wrote:
Notice the slanting foot room angle on Wish is not mentioned in official graph (not consistence) and actual height is also not as good as what people think, see the extra lines on my graph carefully The dummy on Wish is a child size dummy for third row while Stream use adult size.
Here is the enlarged version of the same pax seating schemetic.
How you come to arrive that Wish's schematic on the 3rd pax is of child-size is beyond me.

In the wish picture, if the top line is straight, the bottom line is slanted (due to slanting floor), it means the 3rd person is smaller than the 2nd and 2nd is smaller than 1st.

Which means the the 3rd dummy used in the illustration is of smaller size

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:31 am

joyfulcity wrote:
ManualOnly wrote:
Notice the slanting foot room angle on Wish is not mentioned in official graph (not consistence) and actual height is also not as good as what people think, see the extra lines on my graph carefully The dummy on Wish is a child size dummy for third row while Stream use adult size.
Here is the enlarged version of the same pax seating schemetic.
How you come to arrive that Wish's schematic on the 3rd pax is of child-size is beyond me.

In the wish picture, if the top line is straight, the bottom line is slanted (due to slanting floor), it means the 3rd person is smaller than the 2nd and 2nd is smaller than 1st.

Which means the the 3rd dummy used in the illustration is of smaller size

You get A mark for the careful observation Joyfulcity

Not only that if you take a ruler and measure the drivers size of Wish is about 33mm, the second row pax is shrinking to 31mm and the last row shrinks to 28mm. Should you take the driver size dummy 33mm and put it on the last row the head need to go to the roof already

Donâ€™t forget the 45 degree bulging or slanted floor on the last row of Wish is also not shown on official picture, bah.

Notice that the dummy size on Stream is of equal size of 33mm same as Wish driver and still some room left for last row. 4 people tried and confirmed that so no mistake there. I observe that many Hondaâ€™s fact, figure and graphic are consistence with reality

while Toyota often cleverly tweaked! Yet not many aware

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:05 pm

ManualOnly wrote:
Wish doesnt come with ECO low load indicator, (a change has been added)
Both cars have average km/l but not with an on-the-fly-fc bar (employ in hybrid) or Ody or Elysion. But Stream get extra ECO low load indicator
Correction:
Wish comes with "On-the-fly" (aka Real-time) FC reading plus Avg kph.
BTW, what does ECO do? Turns green when at best FC and lowest emission state or when ECO button is selected ?

Dont take the conclusion so seriously, it meant to be a joke. Notice the last sentence?
Agreed bro, that is why I am here to help correct some not-so-serious errors in the review.

Actually the dif on better headroom is very marginal. Second row pax on either cars wont have any diff going in and out as mentioned in the article. The third row is tricky.
Actually, my concern is your contradictory statements in the 1st and 2nd postings about the significance of the height clearance, not about the 3rd row entry issue. However, having say that, I agree 3rd row needs some acrobatic stunt by the pax. The sliding door is a better answer as in minivans like Mazda5 or Toyota Isis.

Notice the slanting foot room angle on Wish is not mentioned in official graph (not consistence) and actual height is also not as good as what people think, see the extra lines on my graph carefully The dummy on Wish is a child size dummy for third row while Stream use adult size.
Here is the enlarged version of the same pax seating schemetic.
How you come to arrive that Wish's schematic on the 3rd pax is of child-size is beyond me.

Better engine for Wish? 2ZR-FE Not yet for this current model. Maybe for all new Wish replacement? I already mentioned it in the history of wish url provided on the first few paragraph. http://motoring.asia1.com.sg/cgi-bin/mo ... 6;t=000373
However Toyota in its official report saying that all 1zzfe engine will be replaced by 2010.

Bro, better re-check your source again:
2010 is the dateline set by Toyota to revamp its entire engine design from concept to production, NOT a production dateline of 2ZR-FE.

In fact, the 2ZR-FE is already in-production now with at least 3 models (Corolla series) using this new dual-VVti power plant ever since its was officially announced this year 13 Jun.
Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/0613.html

The 2ZR-FE is a product of Toyota's on-going evolution of the engine design which is to meet more demanding emssion standard by 2010.
The current 1ZZ-FE has already being phase out when the factory retooling completes. My predicition is there are still inventories of 1ZZ-FE to meet Wish/Isis and other current models demand in the next 48 months before the next generation cycle begin. How time flies, Wish is already coming to 4 yrs old liao!

To get an idea what Toyota is doing for the next 4 yrs (until 2010), they just opened the 1st hybrid production in NA, outside Japan and PRC (1st non-JDM plant) this Oct.
Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/1013.html

In fact, you will see more of such new engines when BM brings in the latest low-emssion hybrid V6 engine from Lexus GS/LS by end of this year. So my bet is Wish G2 might also comes with hybrid powerplant variant.

Bro, I have checked with my photos and confirm no on-the-fly (real time) FC bar for Toyota Wish leh. What I see is the Odometer of 5024km, Trip A and B, Real Time Average km/l trip a of 8.9km/l and Avg km/h of 56.3km/h. AVG km/l Stream also got.

Real time AVG FC is not the same as real time FC bar/gauge. Real time (aka on the fly FC) gauge gives an accurate indication of fuel consumption at that very moment (not average). If speedometer gives the speed on that moment the fc bar gives the consumption at that moment, example 12km/l or 20km/l etc. I apologize for my bad ang-moh explanation.

ECO lights up when engine load at optimum Economy and Ecology. Efficient and low pollution. All is done automatically taking advantage of drive-by-wire and clever ECU. The ECO sort-of teach the drivers to behave

. ECO on Stream is to show low-engine-load, while ECO on Elysion means low load plus deactivation of 3 cylinders from 6 cyl to 3 cyl, during running.

Here is the sample picture from Honda ELYSION to describe of what I am talking about.

In depth report of Elysion is at http://www.shc-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=59008

As for the conclusion, it is not meant for inducement to buy

. I will post my personal opinion later.

As for roominess, actually I donâ€™t see much diff between the two. Only thing Wish seating position is slightly higher while Stream lower. Actual space almost the same due to a clever space management at Stream. As for which one is better I think is very individual. I personally prefer higher seating position but obviously many do not share the same preference, as the low floor Odyssey is proven to be popular.

As for Wish engine, the current 1ZZ already can meet 2010 JDM FC spec same as the new 2ZR. Look at the spec carefully. As whether G2 Wish get 1ZZ or 2ZR, I donâ€™t see any reason why Toyota should use the old 1ZZ unless die-die must finish all old stock

What a report say is that Toyota target "by" 2010 which means can reach even before 2010 but after 2009 "should" use new 1.8L 2ZR engine for all.

Hybrid Wish? I doubt we will see in near future, bcos Hybrid is a-fat-profit-margin-business-model for Toyota, fitted in high margin products. But I could be very wrong too, should Toyota decides to compete with next gen low-price hybrid Fit/Jazz[/url]

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:24 pm

New Stream ECO indicator

Short clips on elysion realtime (aka on-the-fly) fc gauge

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:32 pm

My humble 2 cents

Ok lah enough nonsense, so which one to choose? I must admit it is a tough choice between the two. And I am not going to make it any easier

. This is because if I were to buy such I would not limit my option to both cars only. I would also look at other models within similar price range. Some-more various people have different requirements when look for a car, such as price, size, safety, etc.

For comparison on size here is another compilation includes few others (pardon the poor graphic)

More omv and cost comparison based on Septâ€™06 registration and assuming COE at $11000:

Honda Edix 1668cc, omv $19128, cost 57,200
Honda Civic A 1.8 omv 20849, cost 62,000
Honda Stepwagon 1988cc 23042 cost 66,500
Toyota Isis 1794cc, omv $19876, cost $58,900
Mazda 5, omv 19380, cost 58,000
Nissan Lafesta, omv 21099 cost 61,800

When looking for a car I take various issues together. Vanity (skin deep) or good looking is not very high in my list although good looking plus beautiful brain (technology) is much appreciated. In fact I would rank technology + ecology, comfort, and safety at higher priority. In case you wonder why I put ecology? Often it can tell real-life efficiency of reduced pollutants vs power achieved.

Price and value are very personal. Some cars are priced high but not necessary gives more advantages or value, vis-versa. I also look at the purpose of the car whether for enjoyment or for business function.

Safety is an issue close to many peopleâ€™s heart. A star rating from few independent test centers like NASVA or NCAP can be use as a rough gauge, although the actual real-life result may be influenced by many other unaccounted factors.

The Japanese rating is a little bit different as it uses 6 stars point maximum instead of accustomed 5 stars. To make it easy just minus 1 star from Jap Std and you would probably get what equivalent to Euro/US std.

For latest ratings on JDM cars click url below:
http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2006/as105.html

Some highlight:

Nissan Lafesta gets 4 to 5 stars (roughly 3 to 4 EuroNCAP stars). This would not rank high in my list.
http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2 ... festa.html

Toyota Isis get 5 stars (roughly 4 euroNCAP stars) Side crash result is not so good due to pillar-less design. So this would also be out of my choice.
http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2 ... _isis.html

Honda Stepwagon gets 6 stars, excellent.
http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2 ... epwgn.html

Honda Edix 6 stars, excellent
http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2 ... _edix.html

Mazda 5 (Premacy), 5 stars
http://www.nasva.go.jp/mamoru/english/2 ... festa.html

Is the new Stream worth getting? The answer is yes if you like a sportier look and handling of compact mpv. But just donâ€™t look for some serious butt-kicking performance. It is not design for such. Soon to be launched 200~220ps Civic R is probably a better choice for performance minded people. How about Wish? Wish is a little predictable but popular choice. Export demand should be good. Parts should also be quite plenty by now. So if you need to go along with popular thinking then Wish is the answer.

For Stream up-graders it may be â€œLove and Hateâ€

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:56 pm

zakuii wrote:good stuff mt88. thanks for the review.

on my way home today, saw the new black stream on the road. looks small, maybe because of the lower height. looks good.

Thanks for the kind compliment Zakuii.

The length and width is about the same but height reduced so in the end the overall volume also reduced. So you are right to say it is smaller

ManualOnly · Post by **ManualOnly** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:50 pm

mt88 wrote:Notice the slanting foot room angle on Wish is not mentioned in official graph (not consistence) and actual height is also not as good as what people think..

These 2 issues seems to be a great concern
If that is the pivotal or selling point of a minivan, then that does not explain why the same Stream pic is showing the same 3rd-row constrain. Take note that not the entire Wish 3rd row floor is slanted as you have painted to be. Do check it out . If I were a new minivan shopper, I'll be just as concern on my storage of the limited space BEHIND the 3rd row. Any idea what is the Stream rear storage space vs Wish ?

I have checked with my photos and confirm no on-the-fly (real time) FC bar for Toyota Wish

Wish got real-time AND AVG FC reading lah. Go check again.

Suggest removing the Elysion dashboard from this review as this may misled less informed readers.
FYI, both realtime figures and bar plays same function but different representation. Also, AVG is average, not "real time".

ECO lights up when engine load at optimum Economy and Ecology. Efficient and low pollution.

So how often does the ECO indicator comes on when one is driving in say cities vs hiway driving ?

As for Wish engine, the current 1ZZ already can meet 2010 JDM FC spec same as the new 2ZR.

True. Goes to show how advanced 1ZZ was since its inception back in 1998.
However, the market and new standard have since changed.
Purpose of new 2ZR is to meet the 2005 Emission standard (similar to Euro5). So it is not about your FC concern only.
Doing that isn't easy with a dual vvti DOHC while upping the performance spec at the same time!
Yeap, very likely it will be in the new Wish.

Hybridization of smaller cars can be a challenge due to inherent space constrain for the heavy and large battery cells, only specially designed vehicles and existing larger models such as Accord, Civic,Camry, Lexus SUV and GS/LS are good candidates for hybridization. You don't get to hear Jazz or Echo hybrid rite ?

Hope this help clarify the reason behind my opinion.

liverpool11 · Post by **liverpool11** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:10 pm

You guys seems like the expert here.

Mind if I ask a noob qns.......

Anyone know if the basic X version for Stream have brown or black interior colour? As far as I know and seen, seems like only got biege colour.

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:42 am

liverpool11 wrote: Anyone know if the basic X version for Stream have brown or black interior colour? As far as I know and seen, seems like only got biege colour.

Dark brown and beige interior for X

All black interior for RSZ

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:51 am

ManualOnly wrote:not the entire Wish 3rd row floor is slanted. If I were a new minivan shopper, I'll be just as concern on my storage of the limited space BEHIND the 3rd row. Any idea what is the Stream rear storage space vs Wish ?

Not all slanted. It has been covered in the review. Notice the small cubical doesnâ€™t cover the entire floor? It is just not comfortable.

As why taller wish does not offer a lot more room is because Honda has better space management. Similar concept to Odyssey where the lowering of height doesnâ€™t mean lesser headroom as it is virtually push down with lower floor.

More Stream 3rd row picture

Space and rear storage comparison is few threads up. I reposted below

Wish got real-time

Fantastic. Thank you for the photo. A change has been made. I didnâ€™t capture that. Play not enough

.

So how often does the ECO indicator comes on when one is driving in say cities vs hiway driving ?

Whenever the engine load is low on city or highway driving, such as cruising. Certainly not during acceleration (high load) nor when engine still cold

Purpose of new 2ZR is to meet the 2005 Emission standard (similar to Euro5)

Errâ€¦Wish 1ZZ, Stream R18 and Toyota 2ZR all get 4 stars emission or 75% lower than 2005-exhaust Japan standard. Nothing special there. All are still Euro3 compliances as Nox level at 0.013. Need a better catalytic conv. Euro4 need to have CO not more than 1 and NOx not more than 0.08. Euro5 is even lower NOx at 0.06. Btw if not mistaken Euro5 std is still under proposal for 2008. Btw, side track a bit. Toyota is not known to be a champion of low emission manufacture in the world. Honda does. Why Toyota not? Notice that Toyota still produce a lot of â€œjunkâ€

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:06 am

Very Sorry Guys,

I missed out a middle section of the review at this section: http://www.shc-forum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 47#1018047

I have re-posted and a change has been made.

Btw, this is my second posting of this article and first at SHC. The original post was at Asiaone Motoring Forum (where I frequent) at this url: http://motoring.asia1.com.sg/cgi-bin/mo ... 3;t=000475

Pictures are taken from various sources and including my own. The review is entirely written in Singapore. It is a "made in Singapore" product and probably the first "Engrish" detailed comparison. All here at SHC

Gizmo · Post by **Gizmo** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:40 pm

Good review m8

Has since choosen Stream over Wish mainly due to its car handling characteristics.

Sex in the City · Post by **Sex in the City** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:30 pm

mt88 wrote: Honda Edix also gets my serious thumbs-up. It has a cozy 3x3 configuration plus big luggage area. Unfortunately the latest rumors from Japan say that the new R18A engine may not make it into the Facelift Edix. Instead Honda may use back the old 1.7L and add 2.4L engine into Edix S.

Woah! I hope its true. I would definitely be interested in getting the 2.4L Edix S if it ever makes it to town. That Edix would rock!

mt88 · Post by **mt88** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:38 pm

Gizmo wrote:Good review m8

Has since choosen Stream over Wish mainly due to its car handling characteristics.

Book one already? Woah so fast ah. What model? How much? Where?