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Question on Ek4 AUTO gear box...advice pls...

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Question on Ek4 AUTO gear box...advice pls...

Post by rango » Wed May 05, 2010 9:04 am

Gurus...Hint Hint...please help....

Since DAY 1 tats about a good 3 years plus ago since i got my humble ek4 AUTO i had this problem with the gear box...a bit of difficulty engaging REVERSE gear when car is cold.....need to rev on the accelerator quite a bit b4 can engage reverse gear....but when car is warmed up - no issue....anyway i lived with the small nagging problem until today....part and parcel of driving an old car..... :D

But now recently backside itchy and thinking of overhauling my gearbox...any bro heard of Khangs Auto transmission....they seem like the AUTHORITY in auto gear boxes...

http://www.khangsautomatic.com.sg/home.aspx

i spoke to MY TRUSTED mechanic who is the ONLY person that has touched my car for the past 3 years... :D ....he suggested i get a japan imported gearbox....costing bout 1k plus/minus....with labour....

any BRO can advice whats the best option....actually its not a pressing issue and i am exploring options and would also consider rebuilding my gearbox...to racing specs...IF THERE IS such a thing for old man aka AUTO Ek4....i know the manual bros got close ratio and what not???
by DIRT22 » Thu May 06, 2010 5:34 pm
Hi guys,

First and foremost I'm no guru on anything, quite embarassing to be called such haha! But I have abit of experience on the EK4A based on things I've gone through so I can share share lah....

The EK4 autobox is quite hardy and can tahan a fair bit of abuse, if you stick with a built B16 a good condition EK4 autobox can take any abuse you can throw at it (short of constant and repeated N to 1 or D3,D4 launchings lah!)....

We've had guys on built K-series with large displacements and/or forced induction running torque monsters that have tried replacement torque convertors from the US company Level10, with good results. However these are monsters producing massive amounts of torque (eg. 30kg-ish?) which sub 2-litre NA's don't really push. So unless you're running a high torque engine like a built B20 with displacement pushing more than 2-litres and stage-3 camshafts and the like, it's unlikely you'll need such a replacement torque convertor.

The problem with such sports torque convertors rebuilt in the US (or any other place for that matter) is that they increase your stall speeds to the point where it may be unsuitable for daily driving. Put simply, your autobox shifts according to the TCM (transmission control module) points so if you leave it in D3 or D4 your autobox shifts accordingly. If your torque convertor has been replaced with one with a high stall speed unit, your gears will shift at the alloted RPM based on the mechanical settings inside the new torque convertor. So with daily driving your gears will be automatically shifting at high RPMs (even if you don't want to!). Sure, the torque convertor can take much more abuse, but it's usually not suitable for daily use on a mildly modded example of an engine.

Worse case scenarios, the TCM signals and the gearbox won't mesh totally well and you have problems. A few guys I know running the B16 (built or otherwise) have taken out their Level10 torque convertors and replaced with stock ones after a while of use.

To ensure maximum durability and useability from your gearbox (and torque convertor in general) be abit religious about maintainance. Use high quality ATFs (I used to use HKS ATF both semi and full synthetic for track duties) and replace your ATF at much more regular intervals (such as the manual gear oil for manual PERFORMANCE cars). Invest in a good quality transmission oil cooler, I used to use one from HKS but a Hayden with good hoses and fittings will suffice.

If you are running a high torque and high horsepower engine (such as a built B18 or 20) you can consider getting a DC2 GSR autobox. The durability is about the same, as are the tolerances, but the ratios are much longer. With your 4 gears spaced out over a longer ratio it will give your gearbox more "protection" from the much greater torque and power your bigger engine is pushing out. Top speed is good but your acceleration suffers. It's more like a 3.9 final driver equivalent compared to the EK4A's 4.3ish equivalent.

I'm in a bit of a rush so some details may be lacking, if anyone doesn't understand just post here I'll get back to you when I have more time!

Cheerios!
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WRX/EVO...Hmm and of course...Golf Gti... please dont Jio me...i only 1.6L Auto...u are 2.0L Turbo....

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Post by daboy14 » Wed May 05, 2010 10:25 am

Better change to a manual gearbox imho.. That is
if u wanna make the most out of ur engine can max
out all ur gear ratio..

For spirited driving just go get a surplus matic tranny
and be done with it..
"LIFE begins at 8.9k rpm.... VTEC power!!!

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Post by rango » Wed May 05, 2010 10:54 am

sorry forgot to mention MANUAL is NOT an option.... :D....i CANNOT drive manual anymore my wifes car is manual my bros car is manual....i have become very lazy to shift gear and play with clutch....once in a while ok but on a day to day basis...NO way :shock:

i LOVE AUTO not in any ride u give me an auto corolla or nissan sunny....urghhh... :shock: ....but mated to a B16 in an Ek4.... :twisted: ....basically everything that can be done to my ride i have done WITHIN the strong arms of the law... :D ...only thing left.....gearbox...i can live with what i have but then again no harm asking around.... 8)
WRX/EVO...Hmm and of course...Golf Gti... please dont Jio me...i only 1.6L Auto...u are 2.0L Turbo....

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Post by EK Type-R » Wed May 05, 2010 12:47 pm

some old birds had tried strengthening their auto gearbox.. sent to a company 'Level Ten' or something in the US.. results were not as per expected with the cost involved..
try asking bro Dirt22 he's the guru for EK4A.. :wink:

IMHO wat the EK4 auto gearbox needs is a good sized & quality ATF cooler with regular ATF-Z1 change.. shd be good enough for any type of street driving..
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Post by rango » Wed May 05, 2010 2:54 pm

EK Type-R wrote:some old birds had tried strengthening their auto gearbox.. sent to a company 'Level Ten' or something in the US.. results were not as per expected with the cost involved..
try asking bro Dirt22 he's the guru for EK4A.. :wink:

IMHO wat the EK4 auto gearbox needs is a good sized & quality ATF cooler with regular ATF-Z1 change.. shd be good enough for any type of street driving..
yup i know awaiting the arrival of the guru.... :D ....on a milder note i keeping the legendary ek4 AUTO alive ha ha...anyway...cooler is an option but i thought its only necessary for track use where the tranny takes a beating... :?:
WRX/EVO...Hmm and of course...Golf Gti... please dont Jio me...i only 1.6L Auto...u are 2.0L Turbo....

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Post by saint jo » Wed May 05, 2010 3:47 pm

hav u tried changing ur gear oil?
Turbo...
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Post by rango » Wed May 05, 2010 6:14 pm

saint jo wrote:hav u tried changing ur gear oil?
yup running on stock honda atf fluid i tried redline before and also added in one of those rubish additive(snake oil)...that suppose to do wonders...ah well i was a sucker... :D ...actually i dont have an issue with my gearbox....but one thing i feel that my gearbox response is not that good when i floor my pedals....i feel there is a lag in my transmission....it takes time to catch up with the power of my engine....a already done a tune up and my mechanic advised me to replace the gear box....so basically i have a few options...

1) Replace with stock JDM imported gearbox

2)Bring in to one of those auto transmission companies who specialize in auto boxes....see what they say.

3) continue drivin an delete this thread...ha ha

4) See if any bro got suggestions about rebuilding a stock gear box...

5) anything else i dunno...
:?:

But one thing for i am sure this is one avenue not many bro have explored....cos the ek4 auto is more rare than a lambo.... :shock:
WRX/EVO...Hmm and of course...Golf Gti... please dont Jio me...i only 1.6L Auto...u are 2.0L Turbo....

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Post by CIVIC_250 » Wed May 05, 2010 7:11 pm

Change one set would be better. Got the same prob last time.

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Post by s15 » Wed May 05, 2010 8:15 pm

Auto gearbox definately will lag while changing gears, its not a DSG or SST gearbox

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Post by rango » Thu May 06, 2010 12:55 am

s15 wrote:Auto gearbox definately will lag while changing gears, its not a DSG or SST gearbox
ok so i learned something today....ha ha better than going to some auto gearbox expert listen to cock n bull story and then kana chopped..... :D
WRX/EVO...Hmm and of course...Golf Gti... please dont Jio me...i only 1.6L Auto...u are 2.0L Turbo....

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Post by DIRT22 » Thu May 06, 2010 5:34 pm

Hi guys,

First and foremost I'm no guru on anything, quite embarassing to be called such haha! But I have abit of experience on the EK4A based on things I've gone through so I can share share lah....

The EK4 autobox is quite hardy and can tahan a fair bit of abuse, if you stick with a built B16 a good condition EK4 autobox can take any abuse you can throw at it (short of constant and repeated N to 1 or D3,D4 launchings lah!)....

We've had guys on built K-series with large displacements and/or forced induction running torque monsters that have tried replacement torque convertors from the US company Level10, with good results. However these are monsters producing massive amounts of torque (eg. 30kg-ish?) which sub 2-litre NA's don't really push. So unless you're running a high torque engine like a built B20 with displacement pushing more than 2-litres and stage-3 camshafts and the like, it's unlikely you'll need such a replacement torque convertor.

The problem with such sports torque convertors rebuilt in the US (or any other place for that matter) is that they increase your stall speeds to the point where it may be unsuitable for daily driving. Put simply, your autobox shifts according to the TCM (transmission control module) points so if you leave it in D3 or D4 your autobox shifts accordingly. If your torque convertor has been replaced with one with a high stall speed unit, your gears will shift at the alloted RPM based on the mechanical settings inside the new torque convertor. So with daily driving your gears will be automatically shifting at high RPMs (even if you don't want to!). Sure, the torque convertor can take much more abuse, but it's usually not suitable for daily use on a mildly modded example of an engine.

Worse case scenarios, the TCM signals and the gearbox won't mesh totally well and you have problems. A few guys I know running the B16 (built or otherwise) have taken out their Level10 torque convertors and replaced with stock ones after a while of use.

To ensure maximum durability and useability from your gearbox (and torque convertor in general) be abit religious about maintainance. Use high quality ATFs (I used to use HKS ATF both semi and full synthetic for track duties) and replace your ATF at much more regular intervals (such as the manual gear oil for manual PERFORMANCE cars). Invest in a good quality transmission oil cooler, I used to use one from HKS but a Hayden with good hoses and fittings will suffice.

If you are running a high torque and high horsepower engine (such as a built B18 or 20) you can consider getting a DC2 GSR autobox. The durability is about the same, as are the tolerances, but the ratios are much longer. With your 4 gears spaced out over a longer ratio it will give your gearbox more "protection" from the much greater torque and power your bigger engine is pushing out. Top speed is good but your acceleration suffers. It's more like a 3.9 final driver equivalent compared to the EK4A's 4.3ish equivalent.

I'm in a bit of a rush so some details may be lacking, if anyone doesn't understand just post here I'll get back to you when I have more time!

Cheerios!
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Post by DIRT22 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:11 pm

Okay have a bit of time on my hands so will continue abit on this.....

Rebuilding an automatic gearbox is a costly (both time and money) exercise that only benefits if for whichever and whatever reasons, you need to put a very powerful engine in the EK4A. In such cases there are many scenarios that can happen:

One, you make do with the current EK4A stock autobox and use good ATF fluid, a good transmission oil cooler (aka ATF cooler) and regular ATF changes. DON'T FLUSH your automatic gearbox, that is one of the ways that will shorten the lifespan of your gearbox! (a disclaimer, this point is controversial at best but I believe in my views lah).

Replace the gearbox with another same one (be it recon or otherwise) whenever the stock box goes kaput.

Two, send your stock torque convertor off to the US to companies like Level10 that rebuild it to higher specs. This will of course result in a permanent higher stall speed for your gearbox which means your gears will change at a fixed higher RPM whether you like it or not. Which of course rules out comfy driving since this work is done for high torque engines that need the higher stall speeds to prevent the car putting so much power to the ground that you can't even get traction!

Live with this permanent "sports" or "race" type behaviour from your autobox. And this is by no means a permanent change since like with all mechanical parts there will be wear and tear.

Three, this is only if you have a really big CC engine and the increased torque can offset your lack of accelerative pull at the low-range RPMs. Swap to a longer ratio GSR autobox. You will need to modify the sockets for your speed sensors or you will get no speedometer readings! Will also need a major retune of the ECU/piggyback you are using! If you don't have any piggybacks at least, will gabra the whole car's performance.

Live with the long ratios and poor final driver of 3.9-4.0ish. Great for blasting down lone highways in Malaysia but really makes you use the 1 and 2 gears during traffic jams in Singapore in order to get some measure of performance out of your same engine as compared with using a stock EK4A autobox!

Four, if you are so tech inclined, take your automatic ECU, isolate the parts of the circuit board that have to communicate with the TCM (transmission control module, which is a separate ECU just for the autobox), take a manual EK4 ECU and replicate these features. The stock EK4 ECU has a RPM response that is waaay faster than an automatic ECU's. So you are getting better response from your existing setup.

Please note this step has not been attempted before due to the complexities involved, or no one was willing to fry or spoil anything in the process! :P A very expensive variation of this method is to go for a standalone MOTEC ECU that has been coded to be able to control an automatic transmission. This of course costs a few thousand to begin with, so is probably not the choice for any sane modder!










End of the day the automatic EK4 gives joys of its own, we don't have to compare it with its manual bros. As long as we know how to pre-empt the gear changes and anticipate the power delivery, adjust our shifting points in advance to suit, we can give many wannabes a run for their money.

Just ask the Rex cuckoo who got snooked by me many many many moons back, he really didn't know what hit him and could only rub rub his nose and go off with beat when he finally found out I was running an automatic. :twisted: Ha ha those young and foolish days manz...... :lol:
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Post by rango » Fri May 07, 2010 11:09 am

wow...tks man thats heap loads of advice very useful.... i guess in summary best option for my case running on a mildly modded b16a5...best is to stick to a stock tranny and be religious about my gearbox servicing....not too sure if i need an oil cooler though cos i dont go tracking...anyway interesting read up especially the part bout the rex....cos i been snooked many times by them...ha ha tats why i proudly declare that i am on a 1.6L auto....anyway its not about racing....just having some nice rides on my own :wink: ....the part about shipping the torque convertor to the us is definately a big NO....i guess i will wait for my tranny to kaput and drop in a japan import tranny done by my trusted mechanic....hope the info here is useful for any other ek4 AUTO bros still left....from what i gather we are on the brink of EXTINCTION...just like the dinosaurs....ha ha tks again bro Dirt 22 :lol:
WRX/EVO...Hmm and of course...Golf Gti... please dont Jio me...i only 1.6L Auto...u are 2.0L Turbo....

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Post by csa » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:27 pm

if only i know dirt22 is the guru of this auto gearbox

i own 96 EK4 Sir. B16a auto. have the worst nightmare with the gearbox. from day 1 i own it, the car is clocking 250k km. i send the gearbox to overhaul (regret spending on this) after it gave me problems on "delay shift" D4 and R affected. after overhaul (only seal, o-ring, gasket change!)

after driving for 4months, car cannot move. tow back to workshop that done the overhauling. gearbox check. and this time cluth lining/plate change. screw them up and down asking why never bother to change during first overhaul. they told me still in good condition. damn! spend another big fortune on it again.

after driving for around 11-12months, worst nightmare come! shit problematic in gear 3 - gear 4. its drags too long to shift. after some time, it stuck in gear 2 sometime gear 3. drove to workshop. 3rd time open up gearbox! guess what?? bearing broke into pieces! cause one gear/synchros to damage. there were metal parts and debris all over the gearbox. crunch terribly! gearbox k.o!

ask them how this can happen. they cant give me a firm answers. :(
no way to overhaul as this require a total rebuilt! spending the 2 times overhauling enable me to do an auto-manual conversion. this time change to a recond gearbox.

now been driving around 2 months. so far so good. but still this problems arise in my mind. what could have been the culprit of this damage???

for info, this is a daily driven car. 6 days a week is doing long distance driving - around 70-90km per day. 90% highways. 10% city. working purpose. sunday is 100% city driving. hardly full throttle! very gentle driving.

i wonder how this recond gearbox will last me. love this ek a lot. but gearbox problems makes me live in hell!

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Post by DIRT22 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:43 am

csa wrote:if only i know dirt22 is the guru of this auto gearbox

i own 96 EK4 Sir. B16a auto. have the worst nightmare with the gearbox. from day 1 i own it, the car is clocking 250k km. i send the gearbox to overhaul (regret spending on this) after it gave me problems on "delay shift" D4 and R affected. after overhaul (only seal, o-ring, gasket change!)

after driving for 4months, car cannot move. tow back to workshop that done the overhauling. gearbox check. and this time cluth lining/plate change. screw them up and down asking why never bother to change during first overhaul. they told me still in good condition. damn! spend another big fortune on it again.

after driving for around 11-12months, worst nightmare come! shit problematic in gear 3 - gear 4. its drags too long to shift. after some time, it stuck in gear 2 sometime gear 3. drove to workshop. 3rd time open up gearbox! guess what?? bearing broke into pieces! cause one gear/synchros to damage. there were metal parts and debris all over the gearbox. crunch terribly! gearbox k.o!

ask them how this can happen. they cant give me a firm answers. :(
no way to overhaul as this require a total rebuilt! spending the 2 times overhauling enable me to do an auto-manual conversion. this time change to a recond gearbox.

now been driving around 2 months. so far so good. but still this problems arise in my mind. what could have been the culprit of this damage???

for info, this is a daily driven car. 6 days a week is doing long distance driving - around 70-90km per day. 90% highways. 10% city. working purpose. sunday is 100% city driving. hardly full throttle! very gentle driving.

i wonder how this recond gearbox will last me. love this ek a lot. but gearbox problems makes me live in hell!
This is a pretty old/dead thread, luckily I was just scanning through old posts and saw an update so popped by..... :P

Like I previously said, I'm no guru, haha anyone who calls himself a guru is a liar and an arrogant one at that heh heh heh.... :D

My own ride is a '96 EK4 as well, still running strong with a few more years left on the 2nd COE....

If I may comment, your first mistake may have been in overhauling your automatic gearbox. Pardon me for saying this, but there is a high hit-and-miss reliability ratio with regards to overhauling "cheap" automatic gearboxes in Singapore. By "cheap" I mean something nonfancy like our EK autobox. Most-times you are better off having your TRUSTED mechanic source for a replacement unit from the scrapyards, take it apart to check for things that need to be changed, then have it installed.

Number 1, it saves you down-time. You don't need to have your car stripped of its innards while some mechanic is overhauling/reconditioning your gearbox. You can be driving around till the unit is ready to be installed, and the down-time is like max 1-2 days?

Number 2, old and weary or worse, damaged autoboxes are sometimes un-reconditionable or un-overhaulable. Just like my engine has a worn piston ring in cylinder 2 but if I overhaul the engine it won't actually do much improvement since the pistons have worn the cylinders and I'd be better off just building up a new engine etc.

Right now that you've had a replacement autobox put in, time to take good care of it. Change your ATF more regularly than normal (throw the manufacturer handbook out the window!), I used to change ATF every 5000-10000km depending on whether I tracked more or tracked less.... Since your mileage is abit on the higher side, I would suggest peg it to your servicing interval (I assume its every 10000km?) Normal ATF doesn't cost much, and religiously changing it may just save you bigger headaches down the road. Penny wise pound foolish ya know?

Stick to the reliable Honda ATF, reliable and affordable. If you don't track, there is no point going for expensive ATFs since you won't really reap the benefits.

"Delay-shifting" in a conventional autobox, sometimes can be easily fixed. It could have been as simple as the fact that your ATF was waaaay too old. Back then when I was still actively tracking in the automatic, there was an instance when I was burling through some corners in Sepang when my gearbox just refused to change gears, up or down. When it did change, it was after a lengthy delay. Pitted in, popped bonnet and realised the ATF plug was "popped out" and I was drooling ATF over the floor. Topped up with fresh ATF and went back out, was doing fine until the same problem occured. Cut short the session, drove back Singapore with intermittent delay-shift problems, next available working day popped by workshop and drained the ATF.

Results? ATF had "broken-down", somehow I had forgotten to change the ATF on my last servicing and the fluid wasn't able to hold the heat from the abuse. Change to all fresh all new ATF and the next track session went smoothly with no gearchange issues.

So case in point, never assume your fluids are still good, they are the cheapest things to change and if the problems go away, you just saved yourself a heaps of mechanical repair etc etc money. If they don't solve the issue, well it was a small cost outlay and your regular workshop should be able to salvage and reuse most of it.

Hope this lengthy ramble helps!

Cheers,

Dirt22
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